Re: Re:RE: (PipingDesign) Flanged connections with dissimilar Ma

From: <NIRMAL>
Date: Fri Jul 05 2002 - 10:01:00 EDT

Knowing about Solon Belleville Washers from http://www.dracomech.com/miscparts/solon.htm was interesting. But your application (Cold Box) is Cold ( I am not sure, but if we are talking about LN2, LOX, liquefied air, etc it may even be cryogenic) talks about axial (not radial) differential expansion and may be pressure also is not very high.

To bring the discussion back on track...

My posting was about hot (400deg C) high pressure (125 Kg/Cm2) hydrogen service. I was fearing some radial (not axial) differential expansion of two dissimilar RTJ flanges (8" 1500# SS321 v/s F11) distorting the octagonal RTJ gasket resulting in a leak. The alternate solution for this application (which is most popular even during our discussions on PipingDesing) was dissimilar welding at the flange-pipe joint with a proper WPS. Mahavir referred about UOP changing RTJ joints to RF joints in case of different metallurgy. What was the temp and pressure in this case? Was it with some special gaskets like belleville or just ordinary gaskets? How then the tightness of RTJ is achieved?

My experience is to use companion RTJ Flange of same material as equipment flange (F11 clad with SS347) supplied by equipment supplier with a further 300MM piece of pipe (SS321- same as piping). This 300MM pipe piece of SS321 is welded to the F11 flange at shop in a controlled environment.

Tushar, the impact on gasket may not be as minor as you are considering. Just see the simple calculations:

Diff in Thermal Exp Coefficient = (8.15 - 6.16 ) in/100ft for temp diff of 21 to 400 degC for F11 and SS321
Pitch Radius of 8" 1500# RTJ flange groove = 135mm The above gives Differential expansion = 0.22 MM

Can you ignore this shearing deflection of 0.22 MM on a 5 MM gasket?

Nirmal. 

                       "Tushar, Zope "
                       <zope_tushar@fwc.        To:      
<PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com>
                       com>                     cc:
                                                Subject:  [PipingDesign] Re:RE:
(PipingDesign) Flanged
                       05/07/2002 07:01          connections with dissimilar Ma
                       PM
                       Please respond to
                       PipingDesign

You are going off-track.

The original querry was exactly opposite. It is hot service and special material
piping and u people are discussing cold box piping??? 

____________________Reply Separator____________________
Subject: RE: (PipingDesign) Flanged connections with dissimilar Mater Author: "C_H_Trinadhulu@ril.com" <SMTP:C_H_Trinadhulu@ril.com> Date: 7/4/02 2:35 AM

If it is inside the cold box( ASU ) normally they avoid flange joints . For joining aluminium to SS we have used Transition joint . While welding with SS to transition joint we should not exceed the temp mentioned on the transition joint .
REGARDS Geoff Stone DD&D Australia <blenrayaust@yahoo.co.uk> on 07/04/2002 12:56:13 PM

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Subject: RE: [PipingDesign] Flanged connections with dissimilar

        Materials

Nirmal,

Joining ss to aluminium flanges on cold boxes they generally use Belleville
washers to maintain the load on the gasket.

Paul, you have experience of this type of application?

Geoff
--- NIRMAL MURARKA <Nirmal-Murarka@enc.ltindia.com> wrote:

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<BR>
Steve,<BR>
<BR>
The two types of material break, I hope, are essentially break at<BR> flange-pipe joint (weld break) and break at flange face (mechanical break).<BR>
Or are you taking about some other types of breaks using additional<BR> components. I would like to know more about that.<BR> <BR>
Generally in such a situation the equipment supplier and flange supplier<BR>
will put the blame on each other. Its the system (plant) designer who has<BR>
to take a decision.<BR>
<BR>
Your concerns about hardness, elasticity, galvanic/corrosion resistance<BR> always remains there. What I feel more critical here is the differential<BR>
thermal expansion of the two flanges twisting the gasket after a few<BR> thermal cycles and leading to a leak. Ring material may not help much in<BR>
this case.<BR>
<BR>
What you say...<BR> 

<BR>
<BR>
<BR>

Nirmal Murarka<BR> 
<BR>
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Hi Nirmal Murarka<BR>
<BR>
It is normally more difficult to arrange the welding of two dissimilar<BR> metals than it is to arrange a flanged joint. As you have stated that the<BR>
materials will be dissimilar, a material &quot;break&quot; joint is required<BR>
somewhere. It will be either mechanical or welded. Mechanical is more<BR> common. With RTJ joint with two different flange materials, hardness,<BR> elasticity, galvanic/corrosion resistance need to be considered carefully.<BR>
A<BR>
good selection of ring material may help. I would talk to your vessel<BR> supplier and your flange supplier. Service and temperature cannot be<BR> ignored.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers<BR>
<BR>
Steve McKenzie<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: NIRMAL MURARKA [mailto:Nirmal-Murarka@enc.ltindia.com]<BR> Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 5:00 PM<BR> To: PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com<BR>
Subject: RE: [PipingDesign] Flanged connections with dissimilar<BR> Materials<BR> 
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>

Steve/Mahavir,<BR>
<BR>
Do you tend to say that we should not use different material flanges for<BR>
RTJ joints with solid metallic gasket?<BR> <BR>
Can I conclude that if the joint is RTJ go for spec break at weld and<BR> otherwise flange face without bothering much about service and temperature?<BR>
<BR>
Any comments?<BR>
<BR>
Nirmal Murarka<BR> 
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>


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&quot;Steve McKenzie&quot;<BR>
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Subject:&nbsp; RE: [PipingDesign]<BR>
Flanged connections with<BR>
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AM<BR>
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Please respond to<BR>
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PipingDesign<BR> 
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Hi Mahavir<BR>
<BR>
your dilemma occurs sometimes with pumps.<BR> One way it is overcome is to have the equipment supplier provide flanged<BR>
ends on his equipment and also to supply mating flanges (and gasket if<BR> necessary) to your pipe material spec.<BR> <BR>
Cheers<BR>
<BR>
Steve McKenzie<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Prasad Mahavir/Piping [mailto:jainmp@eil.co.in]<BR> Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 3:30 PM<BR> To: PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com<BR>
Subject: RE: [PipingDesign] Flanged connections with dissimilar<BR> Materials<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hi folks,<BR>
<BR>
I guess that type of flange facing would also play a role. For example if<BR>
the flange is with RTJ ends and gasket being used is solid octagonal or<BR> oval, then I would not like to exercise option 2. Any Comments?<BR> <BR>
Mahavir<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: NIRMAL MURARKA [mailto:Nirmal-Murarka@enc.ltindia.com]<BR> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:55 PM<BR> To: PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com<BR>
Subject: [PipingDesign] Flanged connections with dissimilar Materials<BR> <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; For a spec break with change in material near a flanged joint (may
be<BR>
&nbsp; equipment flange and piping flange) what should be the correct
approach:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; 1. Have spec break at flange-pipe joint (with dissimilar welding at
the<BR>
&nbsp; flange-pipe joint) and avoid leakage because of unequal thermal<BR>
expansion.<BR>
&nbsp; 2. Have spec break at the gasket (face of flange) and avoid
dissimilar<BR>
&nbsp; material welding.<BR>

<BR>
&nbsp; May be temperature and type of materials will play a key role. When
can<BR>
we<BR>
&nbsp; go with option # 2 safely ?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>

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