pipingdesign: RE: Anchor Block Requirement

From: <Steve>
Date: Wed Oct 02 2002 - 20:59:00 EDT

Geoff

Have a look at the following link;
http://www.homepages.hetnet.nl/~paul_voorhaar/Documents/Isope99.pdf

In the early days there was a problem with shear failure of the insulation. I believe this has since been engineered out. If you have no luck, let me know as I have a mate who was involved with early pre-insulated systems for district heating in Europe through Ove Arup. He may be able to shed some light.

Cheers

Steve McKenzie

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Stone DD&D Australia [mailto:blenrayaust@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:50 AM To: PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PipingDesign] Anchor Block Requirement

Tony,

I should have made myself clearer. My question wasnt really related to that from Saeed. it was a general question hoping you may have had direct experience
of foam insulated lines. If the Dow product does this then one would expect the
foam PUR used by the preinsulated pipe manufacturers does as well.

Any forum members with direct experience out there? Have any district heating
or cooling systems had insulation failures from this phenomena? One would imagine it to be a real problem for steel pipes where water ingress could penetrate the liquid barrier because of mechanical damage and cause corrosion?

Geoff Stone
--- Tony Paulin <tony@paulin.com> wrote:

<tt>
Geoff, 
My comments concerned buried steel or GRE pipelines for water, natural gas, or other hydrocarbon services that are coated for corrosion protection. There have been numerous installations in Canada and Holland where foam or peat crushing has been employed successfully. Typically the low stiffness material is placed along the pipe (and around the bend) for some number of meters on either side of the bend to reduce the stress in the lateral bearing length of pipe. Dow makes six different grades of the material to accomodate various conditions. 
Insulated, buried pipe certainly provides a different set of problems. I presumed from Saeed's comments that the pipeline he was asking about was not of the insulated variety. Tony 
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Geoff Stone DD&D Australia"
<blenrayaust@yahoo.co.uk> 

To: <PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [PipingDesign] Anchor Block Requirement 
 
> Tony, 
> 
> We are in violent agreement on this matter. 
> 
> Could you comment on a matter posted recently on pre insulated pipe
where 
the 
> skin friction holds the outer shaeth in place and the inner pipe
expands 
and 
> contracts. Do you have any experience in the foam shearing or crushing
at 
> changes of direction. The system suppliers believe that there isnt
a 
problem 
> but they perhaps havent dug any up after years of service. Can you
believe 
that 
> the foam has sufficient shear strength as to restrain the inner pipe
from 
> moving? 
> 
> Geoff Stone 
> --- Tony Paulin <tony@paulin.com> wrote: 
> 
> <HR> 
> <html><body> 
> 
> 
> <tt> 
> Thrust Blocks on Underground Piping: 
> 
> There are two types of pressurized underground piping systems,
those 
> that support axial tension and those that do not. Bell and spigot
type 
> end connections do not support axial stress in the pipe and so the
end 
> thrust (P times A) must be carried by the soil via an anchor block
or 
> the pipe joint will separate. 
> 
> When a buried pipe is circumferentially welded at each joint
such 
> restraint is not needed unless the axial thermal or pressure 
expansions 
> produce excessive stresses or displacements, usually however,
the 
> solution is to permit the expansion, not try to restrain
it. 
> 
> Anchor blocks on circumferentially welded pipe can be placed
to: 
> 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1) Reduce the stress if the displacement
cannot be 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
absorbed or tolerated.&nbsp; In 
> Holland peat is used in 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
the
area around buried bends to 
> soften the backfill 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
and
permit displacement. Dow 
also 
> makes a polystyrene 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
product in several grades that 
can 
> be used to perform 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
the
same function. Permitting 
the 
> displacement is usually 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
the
solution in these case. 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) Stop displacements in areas where
transitions to 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
above ground pipe, or where 
tie-ins 
> or other 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
connections exist that cannot 
> tolerate the movement. 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3) Where large waterhammer loads are
expected to 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
prevent excessive pipe 
movement. 
> 
> There are other special conditions, but I don't get the
feeling 
> that these cases are being discussed. 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: &quot;saeed ahmed&quot;
&lt;n2701h@yahoo.com&gt; 
> To: &lt;PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com&gt; 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 11:01 AM 
> Subject: RE: [PipingDesign] Anchor Block Requirement 
> 
> 
> &gt; 
> &gt; Actually there is a caculation which gives us the requirement
of 
> thrust 
> block for underground piping at bend. Such bends can be 90 deg or
less 
than 
> 90 degree in underground piping. 
> &gt; Saeed. 
> &gt;&nbsp; Geoff Stone DD&amp;D Australia
wrote:Saeed, 
> &gt; 
> &gt; Why do think you need a thrust block? 
> &gt; 
> &gt; Geoff Stone 
> &gt; --- saeed ahmed wrote: 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; --------------------------------- 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; Thanks Geoff Stone for the reply. 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; Iam talking about thrust block requirement in underground
piping
at 
> bend. 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; Saeed. 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; Steve McKenzie wrote:Hi Geoff 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; I use them on steel lines where water hammer is an

issue.&lt;BR&gt;<BR>


&gt; &amp;gt;&lt;BR&gt;<BR>

&gt; &amp;gt;&lt;BR&gt;<BR>

&gt; &amp;gt;&lt;BR&gt;<BR>

&gt; &amp;gt; Cheers&lt;BR&gt;<BR>

&gt; &amp;gt;&lt;BR&gt;<BR>

&gt; &amp;gt;&lt;BR&gt;<BR>

&gt; &amp;gt;&lt;BR&gt;<BR>

&gt; &amp;gt; Steve McKenzie&lt;BR&gt;<BR>

&gt; &amp;gt;&lt;BR&gt;<BR>

&gt; &amp;gt;&lt;BR&gt;<BR>

&gt; &amp;gt;&lt;BR&gt;<BR>

&gt; &amp;gt; -----Original Message-----&lt;BR&gt;<BR>

> &gt; 
> &gt; From: Geoff Stone DD&amp;D Australia 
[mailto:blenrayaust@yahoo.co.uk] 
> &gt; 
> &gt; Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 9:37 AM 
> &gt; 
> &gt; To: PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com 
> &gt; 
> &gt; Subject: Re: [PipingDesign] Anchor Block
Requirement 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; Saeed, 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; Please provide more details as it is difficult to understand
why
you 
> are 
> &gt; 
> &gt; considering an anchor block for underground piping that is 
welded? 
> &gt; 
> &gt; Anchor blocks are sued for rubeer ring jointed ssytems such
as 
ductile 
> iron 
> &gt; 
> &gt; and 
> &gt; 
> &gt; thermoplastics but not a welded steel pipe. 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; Geoff Stone 
> &gt; 
> &gt; --- n2701h wrote: 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; --------------------------------- 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; In calculating the anchor block requirement at&nbsp;
underground 
> &gt; 
> &gt; piping 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; bend,there are two variable involved ,one is tie-in
temperature

and&lt;BR&gt;<BR>


&gt; &amp;gt;&lt;BR&gt;<BR>

&gt; &amp;gt;&lt;BR&gt;<BR>

> &gt; 
> &gt; the other is allowable piping deflection.What should be
the 
critaria 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; taken in the calculation? 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; With thanks 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; Saeed 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; 
> &gt; n2701h@yahoo.com 
> &gt; 
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> all 
> &gt; they 
> &gt; 
> &gt; ask is for referrals for designs they help with. 
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> <tt> 
> Texas Flange - a good source for information on industrial flanges,
all 
they 
> ask is for referrals for designs they help with. 
> 877-610-8924. 
> www.texasflange.com 
> ===================================================== 
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> ===== 
> Design Detail and Development (a division of Blenray Pty Ltd) 
> We specialise in pipe network and waterhammer analysis, pipe stress 
analysis, the design of buried pipelines and thermoplastic pipe systems. 
> Local tel 0402 35 2313 fax 02 8850 2313 
> Overseas tel 61 402 35 2313 fax 61 2 8850 2313 
> Mail Address PO Box 1351 Castle Hill NSW 1765 Australia 
> 
> __________________________________________________ 
> Do you Yahoo!? 
> New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! 
> http://sbc.yahoo.com 
> 
> 
> Texas Flange - a good source for information on industrial flanges,
all 
they ask is for referrals for designs they help with. 
> 877-610-8924. 
> www.texasflange.com 
> ===================================================== 
> unsubscribe: PipingDesign-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 
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Design Detail and Development (a division of Blenray Pty Ltd) We specialise in pipe network and waterhammer analysis, pipe stress analysis, the design of buried pipelines and thermoplastic pipe systems. Local tel 0402 35 2313 fax 02 8850 2313
Overseas tel 61 402 35 2313 fax 61 2 8850 2313 Mail Address PO Box 1351 Castle Hill NSW 1765 Australia

Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com

Texas Flange - a good source for information on industrial flanges, all they ask is for referrals for designs they help with. 877-610-8924.
www.texasflange.com

unsubscribe: PipingDesign-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Received on Wed Oct 02 20:59:00 2002

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