some really excellent points from mike;
H'es right on the money. The role of managing a project doing the
calculations and doing the detail designwork are all value added essential
roles. Many clients try to role them all into one. On a very small project
its possible with a rare and very skilled practictioner.
The time it takes to communicate, get the real picture, collect the
information, and keep going down the right track is an invaluable role and
cannot be trivialized. Ever noticed how on the other side the buyer/owner
calls up , communicates , asks questions, gives feedback and direction or
wants input or project updates and is all doing this on his companies (paid)
time.
When you try to add manhours for these tasks, or put it on your bill, they
only want to pay for the time "on the board/computer"/ producing the calc or
the piece of paper. Somehow the other
equally (if not more) important stuff has no recompensory value, only in
their time. IT is just ignorance (sometimes deliberate on thier part). They
sure bitch if things go astray or off track.
This is where a good manager/PE shines and there are some (not many ) out there. Attempts by owners to subvert bypass role into one overloaded individual and shortcut all that, or mishandling it by poor co-ordinating skills is just asking for trouble. And that happens lots.
Why are we discussing this; because as expectations get higher and they are, things get more complex and they are, accountability increases and it is, buyers of these services get further and further removed from what it takes to do it.OFten they dont even have a clue what information you need and dont want to pay the time it takes to get it. Its getting worse as owners get more and more removed from engineering and just want a turnkey product , but want to stick their fingers in the pie about how its getting done.
Sticking our collective heads in the sand doesnt help address and correct the issues. they need to be openly discussed and REBUFFED for what they are.... ignorance ,lack of knowledge and lack of understanding.
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Waugh [mailto:mike@waudesign.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 10:20 AM
To: PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PipingDesign] New Current Interesting Link - Drawing on Ex
Chris:
I agree with your comments and thanks for your response.
Regarding some of the original subject matter, is the first mistake made when we even discriminate between the two? CAD has been around for say, 10-15 years. Mechanical engineeering (for one)...many more years. The inclusion of CAD into these various displines and technical sciences forces changes and challenges to our original concepts of what it today that make a person educated or for that matter qualified, in any particular field. It is after all, the employer that some sets these demands. The same applies to materials. There is an overwelming aspect to this stuff, one that will never be adressed by downsizing and lumping responsibilities into one. Personally, I like to to feel that I can tackle sciences "en-masse", realizing as well I never be an expert at in one particular area. Probably the best lesson I got at university, was learning just how much I did not know. Managing the level of understanding is the key.
I was interviewing with a company the other that does work for Tropicana. They initially wanted a Project Manager, someone with AutoCAD experience as well as of course, plant experience. Well, I fit the mold. What became apparent, this company was under some pressure because whoever it was they were trying to appease, was asking why they needed to have project Manager and a CAD guy. The giveaway, "well, maybe we need to consider someone who can do both" Typical. Tropicana wants to save a buck, and is tiring gettting billed for both, by an engineering company that has more medals than generals do.
Not to mention the greater problem....communications between those two sods who would wind up chasing each other in circles, until finally, they would accomplish the design goals required. Add to this, all the complexities of meeting the deployment according standards (Colors, layering etc.), that add more pain to the equation than meets the eye. just add variables that are not necessarily or absolutely important but are features inherent to the software and nonetheless add to diversions. What one encounters with programs like AutoCAD (most common) vs software such as 3d modelling software that can really do the job, then something has to give.
So, I told this guy. Look, I am familiar with this problem, these are issues I have had to face. But, dont hamstring me. When you try to lump all these into one, the solution is not found, I have been there. I will happily tackle design, plant engineering, contractors, product issues and regulatory BS, you name it. But, I can only do so efficiently using the tools that I have found to really work, so as to not have to address the ire of someone such as a production manager (Trop), who likely has no concept of the depth involved.
I am about ready for one of the Roo's in the oil can, that is. Stay away from those brown bottles, they've been laced with monobutyl tin trichloride, first vaporised then destructed after molding.
Regards
Mike Waugh
-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Wright [mailto:chrisw@skypoint.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 4:35 PM
To: Pipingdesign
Subject: Re: [PipingDesign] New Current Interesting Link - Drawing on Ex
>But, there is after all, a whole world in materials science that goes
>beyond statics, dynamics, kinematics and the physical world, etc. I have
>been witness to engineers select the cheapest material and the wrong
>materials. And yep, they call themselves engineers.
It works both ways. I've run into metallurgists and materials scientists
who know everything about materials except what makes them fail. It's
fairly common in the forensic biz.
>I have seen many instances where an employer for example,
>wants a CAD designer with an engineering degree.
Engineering is an interesting trade. Unlike the law or medicine, you
rarely find engineers practicing hands-on past the age of forty. And many
engineers become middle management in their 30's and forget most of their
professional skills. In the case of a CAD designer with an engineering
degree, I daresay the person hiring such a person doesn't know what he's
after.
Christopher Wright P.E. |"They couldn't hit an elephant at chrisw@skypoint.com | this distance" (last words of Gen. ___________________________| John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania 1864)http://www.skypoint.com/~chrisw
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