It is turning out to be discussion on wider aspects, the total project management which covers the Piping Design as a part, may be an important part.If I have not forgotten the subject, it seems I have authored a book on Project Management ( Indian Scenario) some 4 years back and was recieved well by the professionals in India and even abroad.Now I understand the importance of the role of the project manager better when a piping design group discusses in such details worldwide appreciating the managers role. Any body having interest in the book may refer the website www.gramya.comThanksNK Roy--- Al wrote:> some really excellent points from mike;> > H'es right on the money. The role of managing a> project doing the> calculations and doing the detail designwork are all> value added essential> roles. Many clients try to role them all into one.> On a very small project> its possible with a rare and very skilled> practictioner.> The time it takes to communicate, get the real> picture, collect the> information, and keep going down the right track is> an invaluable role and> cannot be trivialized. Ever noticed how on the other> side the buyer/owner> calls up , communicates , asks questions, gives> feedback and direction or> wants input or project updates and is all doing this> on his companies (paid)> time.> When you try to add manhours for these tasks, or put> it on your bill, they> only want to pay for the time "on the> board/computer"/ producing the calc or> the piece of paper. Somehow the other> equally (if not more) important stuff has no> recompensory value, only in> their time. IT is just ignorance (sometimes> deliberate on thier part). They> sure bitch if things go astray or off track.> > This is where a good manager/PE shines and there are> some (not many ) out> there. Attempts by owners to subvert bypass role> into one overloaded> individual and shortcut all that, or mishandling it> by poor co-ordinating> skills is just asking for trouble. And that happens> lots.> > Why are we discussing this; because as expectations> get higher and they are,> things get more complex and they are, accountability> increases and it is,> buyers of these services get further and further> removed from what it takes> to do it.OFten they dont even have a clue what> information you need and dont> want to pay the time it takes to get it.> Its getting worse as owners get more and more> removed from engineering and> just want a turnkey product , but want to stick> their fingers in the pie> about how its getting done.> > Sticking our collective heads in the sand doesnt> help address and correct> the issues. they need to be openly discussed and> REBUFFED for what they> are.... ignorance ,lack of knowledge and lack of> understanding.> > > -----Original Message-----> From: Michael Waugh [mailto:mike@waudesign.com]> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 10:20 AM> To: PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [PipingDesign] New Current Interesting> Link - Drawing on Ex> > > Chris:> > I agree with your comments and thanks for your> response.> > Regarding some of the original subject matter, is> the first mistake made> when we even discriminate between the two? CAD has> been around for say,> 10-15 years. Mechanical engineeering (for> one)...many more years. The> inclusion of CAD into these various displines and> technical sciences forces> changes and challenges to our original concepts of> what it today that make a> person educated or for that matter qualified, in any> particular field. It is> after all, the employer that some sets these> demands. The same applies to> materials. There is an overwelming aspect to this> stuff, one that will never> be adressed by downsizing and lumping> responsibilities into one. Personally,> I like to to feel that I can tackle sciences> "en-masse", realizing as well I> never be an expert at in one particular area. > Probably the best lesson I> got at university, was learning just how much I did> not know. Managing the> level of understanding is the key.> > I was interviewing with a company the other that> does work for Tropicana.> They initially wanted a Project Manager, someone> with AutoCAD experience as> well as of course, plant experience. Well, I fit the> mold. What became> apparent, this company was under some pressure> because whoever it was they> were trying to appease, was asking why they needed> to have project Manager> and a CAD guy. The giveaway, "well, maybe we need to> consider someone who> can do both" Typical. Tropicana wants to save a> buck, and is tiring> gettting billed for both, by an engineering company> that has more medals> than generals do.> > Not to mention the greater problem....communications> between those two sods> who would wind up chasing each other in circles,> until finally, they would> accomplish the design goals required. Add to this,> all the complexities of> meeting the deployment according standards (Colors,> layering etc.), that add> more pain to the equation than meets the eye. just> add variables that are> not necessarily or absolutely important but are> features inherent to the> software and nonetheless add to diversions. What one> encounters with> programs like AutoCAD (most common) vs software such> as 3d modelling> software that can really do the job, then something> has to give.> > So, I told this guy. Look, I am familiar with this> problem, these are issues> I have had to face. But, dont hamstring me. When you> try to lump all these> into one, the solution is not found, I have been> there. I will happily> tackle design, plant engineering, contractors,> product issues and regulatory> BS, you name it. But, I can only do so efficiently> using the tools that I> have found to really work, so as to not have to> address the ire of someone> such as a production manager (Trop), who likely has> no concept of the depth> involved.> > I am about ready for one of the Roo's in the oil> can, that is. Stay away> from those brown bottles, they've been laced with> monobutyl tin trichloride,> first vaporised then destructed after molding.> > Regards> > Mike Waugh> > > > -----Original Message-----> From: Christopher Wright> [mailto:chrisw@skypoint.com]> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 4:35 PM> To: Pipingdesign> Subject: Re: [PipingDesign] New Current Interesting> Link - Drawing on Ex> > > >But, there is after all, a whole world in materials> science that goes> >beyond statics, dynamics, kinematics and the> physical world, etc. I have> >been witness to engineers select the cheapest> material and the wrong> >materials. And yep, they call themselves engineers.> It works both ways. I've run into metallurgists and> materials scientists> who know everything about materials except what> makes them fail. It's> fairly common in the forensic biz.> > >I have seen many instances where an employer for> example,> >wants a CAD designer with an engineering degree.> Engineering is an interesting trade. Unlike the law> or medicine, you> rarely find engineers practicing hands-on past the> age of forty. And many> engineers become middle management in their 30's and> forget most of their> professional skills. In the case of a CAD designer> with an engineering> === message truncated ===
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Received on Sun Apr 25 14:25:00 2004
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