<a href="/group/PipingDesign/post?postID=Y0Y8I9bcUZ4JaFPuRLVqm_wb647h-KZf1UXzQ1rSfxt3cVJ3HeVtkNMtIoqcU_hW3_2nP47EGM_d--8FuWSTouiBIoon">PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com</a> wrote:
There are 23 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 20:41:56 -0400
From: Paul Bowers
Subject: Re: A Billion People Can See Piping Design
Bruce Bullough wrote:
> Paul:
>
> I take exception to your comment that you aren't a marketing genius
> "otherwise there would be a million of us". You are merely way ahead of
> your time.
Paul's corollary:
"If you are way ahead of your time, you are also likely way behind on your bills."
Paul
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:05:37 -0400
From: Paul Bowers
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1313
Tas wrote:
> To: Paul
> Knowing restriction policy before entering a refinery maybe a good idea.
> One time, I was detained at a refinery's security office (in KSA) for about
one hour and was threatened to be hauled to jail when a security guard at the
main gate found a digital camera in my brief case. Only the intervention of my
host prevented it from happening. And, I was not even going to the refinery
proper. I was to attend a meeting in the admin building which was not classified
as hazardous area (hazardous only to us, contractors, suffering some project
delays).
> The good thing was, I missed the meeting. It would have been very "hot" in
there.
> Regards.
Of course it's a good idea, and not just maybe.
What possible safety problem did your digital camera present and why were you detained? Or was it a restriction on photographing possibly sensitive installations.
If they were worried about you taking pictures of some oh-so-secret technology, then they should have taken the camera, informed you of the rules and returned the camera after your visit.
Maybe I'm just talking out of my posterior orifice here, but sophisticated process monitoring devices that can be disturbed by a cell phone, digital camera or laser measuring device probably don't belong in any industrial facility.
On the other hand, missing useless meetings can always result in greater productivity on your part.
Paul
To : Paul
Re above:
Best regards.
Thanks.
Tas
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 18:05:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dennie Mosta
Subject: Re: Laser Measuring Devices for Field Work
Hi Paul,
That’s exactly what I used it for, locating steel and pipes and getting elevations of same. I happen to be back at the company that had the Hilti. I checked and they still have it, it’s still very popular with the pipe and structural designers. Matter of fact, I am taking it on a field trip next week.
The least expensive one that I have run across seems to be a quality instrument that I have come across is the one called the Disto Lite for $379. It has a range, or so they claim, of 650’ with an accuracy of ±0.1”. Range is more than we would use, but what the heck. They offer a 30 day trail and payment plans J
I have seen cheap units that say laser tape or words to that effect, but they only use the laser to target. The measurement is done with sound waves. You can imagine how confused that instrument can get when attempting to identify one from a bank of pipes.
They really are great; you can locate a column or pipe in areas that are not safe to be physically close enough to work with the tape measure. Maybe pipingdesign.com could work up a large quantity price J
Paul Bowers
wrote:Hi Dennie, I think I know what you mean now.
Some of these laser measuring devices are very expensive (thousands of dollars) but they are designed for really long (pipeline-type) range.
I was referring to ranges of less than, say, 100 feet for just doing existing column locations and that type of spotting.
This would be for smaller mod jobs where the existing plant drawings cannot always be trusted.
Paul
Dennie Mosta wrote:
> The glasses I refer to are yellow tinted and made of a plastic type material.
They are styled like some safety glasses, but I don't think they are approved
for use as safety galsses. They allow the wearer to see the little red dot
better in a facility's better lighter areas.
>
>
> "C.Y L" wrote:
> Hi There, where can I buy this thing? and is it allowed to use in the
refinary?
>
> Thanks
>
> Robert liu
>
> Paul Bowers
wrote:
>
> Dennie Mosta wrote:
>
>>Hi Paul,
>>
>>For what its worth. a company I used to work had a handheld Laser measuring
device for us our doing field work. It was made, or ay least sold by, the Hilti
company. It was very versatile and accurate. This was three years ago and I
believe the price then was about $650. They have come down, but not enough for
me to afford a good one for personal use. I would love to have one. The only
problems I remember when using it was, even wearing the laser enhancing glasses,
it was sometimes difficult to find the little red dot when using outdoors or a
brightly lighted facility. Also, if you set it on a surface that may be
vibrating from machiney running even little bit, it would be difficut to aim the
red dot where you wanted it. Anyway, I found it to be a very useful instrument.
Evidently others found it useful also, you had to reserve it days in advance in
order to get it. With it, I was able to get measurements affecting my design
that I would normally been unable to ac
>
> quire. I
>
>>think it beats the heck out of a steel tape measure.
>>
>>Dennis
>
>
>
> I'm not sure what you mean when you refer to having to wear special
> glasses, that's completely nerdlike. I wear those all the time.
>
> My experience with these things is that they are really useful (when I'm
> out in the field I like to depend on myself and not someone else).
>
> Lasing a moving target would seem to be a bad idea and I wouldn't expect
> that to reflect reality. My experience with these things is that those
> that have access to them tend to jealously guard them.
>
> One problem I've always seen when doing field work is communicating to
> the other end of the tape measure. And yes, I've "trogolyted" with a
> transit for elevation, that's never been the problem. Now that I recall
> it, I probably have forgotten.
>
> Paul
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:49:11 -0400
From: Paul Bowers
Subject: Re: Laser Measuring Devices for Field Work
Dennie Mosta wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> That’s exactly what I used it for, locating steel and pipes and getting
elevations of same. I happen to be back at the company that had the Hilti. I
checked and they still have it, it’s still very popular with the pipe and
structural designers. Matter of fact, I am taking it on a field trip next week.
>
> The least expensive one that I have run across seems to be a quality
instrument that I have come across is the one called the Disto Lite for $379. It
has a range, or so they claim, of 650’ with an accuracy of ±0.1”. Range is more
than we would use, but what the heck. They offer a 30 day trail and payment
plans J
>
> I have seen cheap units that say laser tape or words to that effect, but they
only use the laser to target. The measurement is done with sound waves. You can
imagine how confused that instrument can get when attempting to identify one
from a bank of pipes.
>
> They really are great; you can locate a column or pipe in areas that are not
safe to be physically close enough to work with the tape measure. Maybe
pipingdesign.com could work up a large quantity price J
Someone actually once suggested that I put a field piping kit together and sell it at the site some time ago. So naturally, I initially "went Ferrari" and came up with a package that cost about $4000. Then I pared it down a bit to the absolute essentials
A couple of weeks ago I designed a piece that I think would accompany a laser measuring tool. It's still in the concept phase because I can't decide on velcro or that sticky putty stuff used for temporarily attaching paper to other stuff yet.
I guess you could say I'm at the PFD stage at this point.
The cheap units you mention are likely the consumer grade "laser" gadgets that can be used for aligning things in the home. Nifty toy for handymen but probably not well-suited if someone has to place a multi-thousand dollar installation properly.
As-built drawings are notoriously bad (or non-existent) and I really wonder how often small upgrade projects turn bad simply because of poor data collection in the first place. Garbage in, garbage out as they say.
Paul
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:49:27 -0400
From: Paul Bowers
Subject: Re: HF piping
Sajit Viswan wrote:
> Wish there was sketch feature in addition to the text posts that one can make.
One could scribble sketch something that needs a illustration.
>
>
>
> Umesh that will not be the BOP but the inside bottoms should match to allow
for the draining. I think it is called in civil parlance as the invert.
A sketch feature would likely involve security problems for browsers. Not that I don't trust you guys, but I have to make sure this forum remains safe from viruses.
There is a feature at PipingDesign's Yahoogroups page that allows one to upload files. Maybe that is worth a look, just make sure you notify the group if you have posted something for viewing.
Agreed on the BOP vs. inside bottoms thing. For U/G piping they call it invert elevation, as you mention. It's conceivable that some situations could have a bevelled weld connection (to match bores for whatever reason) that creates an unintentional low point.
Paul
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 23:11:03 -0400
From: Paul Bowers
Subject: New Current Interesting Link: Stainless Steel
304 vs. 304L. Have you ever wondered what the difference is in this spec? This site explains it all.
Please visit the Piping Design Central main page for the current interesting link.
www.pipingdesign.com
<problem. The function that they perform cannot be duplicated by other materials for their cost. Over 50 years ago, it was discovered that a minimum of 12% chromium would impart corrosion and oxidation resistance to steel. Hence the definition “Stainless Steels”, are those ferrous alloys that contain a minimum of 12% chromium for corrosion resistance. This development was the start of a family of alloys which has enabled the advancement and growth of chemical processing and power generating systems upon which our technological society is based.>>
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 03:13:16 -0000
From: <a href="/group/PipingDesign/post?postID=qqPJp6eIejs3aRGxiHOwb7ZnGheppEK19aLYx6xjPBfgFxO51utGu7i1JgYDTGTFJ9KBo0S5IEu7dnDtFA">pretei_28@yahoo.com</a>
Subject: Allowable Reaction Loads on Drums
Good Day to all,
Does any one have a table for "Allowable Reaction Loads" specifically on K.O. Drums for 54" & 48" size Flare lines? Your advice is greatly appreciated. THank you.
Best Regards,
IaN pRETE
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 00:00:15 -0400
From: Paul Bowers
Subject: Re: Allowable Reaction Loads on Drums
> Does any one have a table for "Allowable Reaction Loads" specifically
> on K.O. Drums for 54" & 48" size Flare lines?
> Your advice is greatly appreciated. THank you.
>
> Best Regards,
> IaN pRETE
If you have 54" and 48" flare lines (lines of that size deserve special treatment) you should probably be consulting a competent engineer that is experienced in this area.
KO drums (are they sitting on foundations?), given that they are recieving relatively "low pressure" rejects from overpressure devices, are a design specialty.
You really need to discuss with a local competent engineer that is experienced with this. You don't want to fool around with piping of this size.
Maybe I should just put this into the "you should know better" file.
Paul
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:56:05 -0000
From: "l_c_y1999"
Subject: Re: HF piping
Thank you umesh, your information is very useful to me. I just had the Alki training yesterday, I have to say HF that I'll try all I can do to make my design (6-1"preesure tap from 10" line) a little safer. If you don't mind, can you send me some typical design detail drawing you've used before. sonmething like the tangential drain detail and anything you think I need to know about to make my design better.
Your kindly help is very much appreciated. Have a nice day
Robert Liu
PS. it'll be great if you can send me some drawings to <a href="/group/PipingDesign/post?postID=O2e6unPaRkIl3x2p2QePXgqMS_64Jf9PesPiN8ot-0jUo9tNQjsynh5nZzk53oNYhR9bVOKxwg">PDS3d@shaw.ca</a>
Thanks again
-
-- In PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com, "umesh k.n."
wrote:
> Hello Robert,
>
> Sorry for delay. Tangential connection means Bottom of 1" drain
line shall flush with the bottom of larger size piping section from
which you are draining. This means BOP of both pipes shall be same.
I have a drawing..i will send soon.
>
> regards,
>
> Umesh
> Sr. Piping & PDS engineer,
> SK Engineering & Const. Ltd., Seoul, SouthKorea.
>
> "C.Y L" wrote:
>
>
> Thanks a lot umesh, what do you mean by " All 1" drain connection
shall be tangential to process piping." ? How do I make the drain
tangential?
>
> Cheers
>
> Robert Liu
>
>
>
> "umesh k.n." wrote:
>
> Hello Mr. Liu,
>
> >Can you share some experiences with me about Hydrofluoric acid
piping design >please? What should I watch out? Any special
requirement besides those in >common hydrocarbon piping design? The
piping spec I'm using now says, " Small >branch from bigger header
has to be from horizontal" why is that?
>
>
> Basic principles of HF piping design:
>
> q I was involved in the design 2 Alkylation plants in Mexico, both
of UOP licence. HF plant is a dangerous plant.
>
> q Piping layout shall be safe from all operation & maintenance
point of view.
>
> q Avoid complex piping layouts; avoid congested corridors (for
operator movement) and platforms.
>
> q If there are any valves to be regularly accessed, located them
at ground levels or in platforms.
>
> q While designing any piping configuration, remember that operator
shall always carry a portable breathing apparatus. This means wider
access areas & platform areas.
>
> q All vents & drains in HF class piping shall be either routed to
flare or u/g drainage system.
>
> q Design the escape ladders, smartly..so that upon anticipating
danger, operating personnel should able to get out of the plant
easily & quickly.
>
> Special notes related to piping design:
>
> q Copper tube piping shall be provided at the end of all drain
lines leading to Acid Funnel.
>
> q 2Â" above lines shall have ¾Â" vent at all pockets.
>
> q HF acid pumps have Alkylate flush supply & return, Isobutene
flush, lines.
>
> q Each acid pump drain shall be flared before pump is removed for
maintenance.
>
> q Each pump seal pot vent line shall be separately routed to Flare
header.
>
> q Acid unloading line requires special support arrangement (No
pocket design)
>
> q Catalyst loading / Unloading type reactors shall require special
attention during design stage.
>
> q Portable exhauster connection shall be tangential tap to pipe.
>
> q Each Control valve shall have drain line connected to flare.
>
> q When CV is to be taken out for maintenance, close the isolation
valves & Flare the drain first.
>
> q There will be separate emergency Air header in rack to feed
emergency booths.
>
> q Drain valve is necessary between high Pr. double b/v for Bleeding
>
> q Breathing air stations shall be located throughout the plant.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Received on Sun Oct 24 13:33:00 2004
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