Al:
Stand up and testify, Brother! We ALL are a part of the problem, if we are only
trying to steal each other's crumbs, while the MBA's and lawyers are hogging the
whole meal. I worked for 30+ years with a major gas company. There's no way
the pay of an engineer (who is making significant decisions about a companie's
profitability) will compare with that of a low level manager or staff lawyer.
Again, this comes down to us bidding against each other. How many times have
you heard of an engineer or engineering company "buying a job", for less than it
should be worth? Have you heard of a lawyer offering cut rates? Or a manager?
In medieval times, the title of Doctor was applied to engineers and such. Medical persons were referred to as "leeches" (not necessarily derogatory), and might be part time barbers. The red and white stripes on the barber's pole are for bandages! But, they passed laws that you had to be certified and trained to be a medical doctor, now they have the world's tightest closed shop. Most of a doctor's diagnostic work could be done, and quicker/better, by an interactive expert system computer program. But figure the odds on that happening...But why can't we have the same cohesiveness and esteem for ourselves?
George McKinney
i wrote an answer at length to chris's comments and decided rather to end on a positive note towards helping the engineering and technical professions. Thats what we need more than anything.
[Suffice to say we have a legal system created for lawyers by lawyers... not a justice system. I suppose Chris will say thats our fault too. The political system is quickly heading down the same road , more so in the US but Nz sure jumped ahead in that game. Sounds like india may be on the same trip.]
sadly engineers are their own worst enemy, trodding each other down a lot of the time. We're all fighting the world over the few crumbs they let us have. its the truth you cant deny. The current war between Professional Engineers and technologists is proof of that. it'll only get worse unless we figure out how to co-operate and treat each other with respect again...
Other professions look at a clients problem and provide referrals to the best help they can recommend or know, for which they may get a referral fee, that may be true...but given the threadbare dog eat dog payment schemes we're under that will never happen. You know the old Chinese proverb about working too hard to make any money.
Technical peoples skills are valued in many other fields except engineering. They do exceedingly well in many other fields once they leave engineering. what a tragic waste. I've said for many years engineers and technical professionals need a strong union and more respect for each other and engender the same respect outside the profession.
Think of the huge contribution and value that engineers and technologists
provide. Lawyers work is destructive not constructive. I for one couldnt do
it.
Pauls video idea is just the kind of positive helpful action we need.. I'm
behind him 100% on ideas and action like that.
Most technical people want to do the best job they can to help and do their best to please.
We need to work together support each other and act in everybodys best interests and not crap all over each other. I see it so often.
I know i dont have to cite the many sad cases that prove it true. Frank Whittle, the original inventor of the computer ,graham bell, the wright bros, right back to da vinci and galileo (nearly got executed), .
-----Original Message-----
From: rajendra bajikar [mailto:rajendrabajikar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 12:38 AM
To: PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PipingDesign] OT: Expat Piping Designers
Dear Safdar,
I support your suggestion and urge the list members to discuss about
formation of a world wide forum for protecting and promoting the interests
of engineers. I also feel that Piping Design group, guided by the peers,
can start the process, even if the modalities are concluded by the time I
konk off. I earnestly urge Paul to permit the group to make the begining.
With regards,
Rajendra Bajikar.
Safdar Abbas <safdar.abbas@trivor.com> wrote:
<< If anyone
wants to change their profession, then go for it.
If anyone wants more money, respect etc while remaining an engineer,
then
work harder and promote yourself.>>
It is not so simple like that, one has to try to improve the state of engineers. All of us here in this forum are engineers and if we don't try then who else will?? One problem with the engineers is that they are very pessimistic. I have seen doctors and lawyers go on strike and take out processions in order to meet their demands. Engineers keep on working and try to be happy what they get. Why not go for a world wide body that monitors the welfare of engineers' world wide.
Regards,
Safdar
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve McKenzie [mailto:mechproj@xtra.co.nz]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 3:32 AM
To: PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PipingDesign] OT: Expat Piping Designers
A lawyer earning public esteem? Thats a good one.
A lawyer taking personal responsibility? Stop it; you'll make me die
laughing.
My lawyer is a discharged bankrupt. His reason:" I broke the first rule
and
gave a personal guarantee"
Try getting anything other than "very good chance" out of a lawyer (
except
the "no cure,no pay" ambulance chasers).
In the words of the immortal Ambrose Bierce: " A lawyer is someone
skilled
in the circumvention of the law".
I dont know what the story is with doctors because I dont play golf. Referral seems to be a major revenue earner though. And they are able to bury their mistakes.
No point in looking over the fence though (apart from a laugh). If
anyone
wants to change their profession, then go for it.
If anyone wants more money, respect etc while remaining an engineer,
then
work harder and promote yourself.
Cheers
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Wright [mailto:chrisw@skypoint.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 11:07 AM
To: ?
Subject: Re: [PipingDesign] OT: Expat Piping Designers
>After all, doctors got where they are by being members of an extremely
>effective union, with an expensive initiation fee.
Doctors and lawyers got where they are by practicing autonomously. Most
engineers are employees, not practitioners. Relatively few engineers are
in the engineering business--most work for outfits who are in the
business of supplying manufactured goods. As employees they do what
they're told, they take no risks and are only rarely held accountable
for
anything more than working to budget. Doctors on the other hand take
personal responsibility for their patient's welfare. Overruling
competent
medical judgement is serious business. When someone dies under a
doctor's
care, the physician isn't just doing what he's told--he's the guy in the
barrel.
Doctors (and lawyers, for that matter) earn public esteem for taking personal responsibility for outcomes. Very few engineers are even registered, let alone personally responsible for anything but following orders.
Christopher Wright P.E. |"They couldn't hit an elephant at chrisw@skypoint.com | this distance" (last words of Gen. ___________________________| John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania 1864)http://www.skypoint.com/~chrisw
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Received on Fri Mar 05 08:14:00 2004
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