<<mostly very talented and hardworking just like society as a whole.>>
I agree with you on the stereotype thing....but stereotypes are not just
thought up to be degrading, there is usually truth behind them deep
down.
I don't know what society you are living in, but finding one, much less
a group, of talented and hardworking people in society is like finding a
needle in a haystack. I apologize in advance for my cynicism...
Regards,
Aaron Wolfe
Piping Designer
Paul Mueller Company
P.O. Box 828
Springfield, Mo 65801
(417) 575-9780
E-mail: awolfe@muel.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Hawco, Paul R. [mailto:PHawco@NGNS.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 10:03 AM
To: PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PipingDesign] Rant on Engineering
[text][bcc][faked-from][bayes]
Bruce,
Thanks for your comments.
I've had some experience with a unionized design office - big mistake in
my opinion and not something I want to be involved with again anytime
soon.
My sister is a lawyer working in a social services environment and a
couple of good friends are doctors - they all work very hard. We have
to be careful not to stereotype any group - they are all a collection of
varied individuals - mostly very talented and hardworking just like
society as a whole.
Paul Hawco
Mechanical Engineer
Neill & Gunter (Nova Scotia) Limited
http://www.neillandgunter.com <http://www.neillandgunter.com/>
-----Original Message----- From: Bruce Bullough [mailto:bbullough@sebesta.com] Sent: March 5, 2004 11:46 AM To: PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [PipingDesign] Rant on Engineering
I think you have hit on a couple things here. There are personality
traits that are more typical of engineers than the more "glamorous"
professions like law: engineers tend to be introverted. An introverted
lawyer doesn't get very far or get recognition. Although I believe
there are way too many lawyers in the world and particularly in N.
America, I have to give 'em credit for something that we get little
credit or recognition for. they are often required to do a percentage
of "pro bono" work. The world knows about it. No one knows about the
"pro bono" work engineers do (I've done 5-10% for years), and they
probably don't care, because, as you said, no one knows what we do.
Most people are afraid of math and science by the time they reach their
mid-teenage years, so if we try to explain something, they just get
glassy eyed and wander off. Our personality and motivators are such
that a union is unlikely to work. We could use some good PR (public
relations - advertising!).
Here in the US, we are paying to cover the cost of the vast majority of
medical and pharmaceutical R&D in the world, and with the open litigation policies, medical doctors' insurance costs are so high that many of them now net less income than many engineers. Lawyers have the 2nd highest rate of job dis-satisfaction (just behind dentists). There are a lot more out-of-work lawyers than engineers (by total numbers and by percentage); we have a part-time receptionist who has passed the bar and can't find work as a lawyer. We do need to stop the underbidding to buy the work, though. No one benefits from that. I do not understand the philosophy, unless we believe that our work is just a load of commodity. Clients always complain about the cost, but if they want you because of your ability or reputation, they will be willing to pay more. The engineering cost fraction of an installed project is of little consequence. After all is said and done, I personally would become an engineer again if I had the chance to start over. It's the best fit for me. ... Bruce D. Bullough ... Sebesta Blomberg & Associates 2381 Rosegate Roseville, MN 55113 USA 651-634-7344 direct 651-634-7400 FAX www.sebesta.com -----Original Message----- From: Hawco, Paul R. [mailto:PHawco@NGNS.com] Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 8:26 AM To: PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PipingDesign] Rant on Engineering [text][bcc][faked-from][bayes] What's the difference between Doctors, Lawyers and Engineers? - Exposure and Perception. TV and Hollywood (and I bet Baliwood too) love to tell stories about Doctors and Lawyers - the storylines are simple and everyone can understand. We have no real promotional body - that's the root of our problem. What do we have? - an Engineering week that only some engineers actually know about and very few participate in. If it wasn't for the Discovery Channel (that only engineers, math and science majors watch anyway) we'd be completely ignored. There hasn't been a good engineer on TV since Star Trek's "Mr. Scott". In today's world kids feel Math is not important - Schools and University's are bending over backwards to come up with programs that exclude Math - and we say nothing. When I go to a party and have to introduce myself, I say I'm an Engineer working in Oil and Gas Design - short and sweet - If I tried to describe what I really do I'd be getting nothing but blank faces - they would not understand - Engineering is too broad. I bet you do the same. Let me take that a little further - no one in my family - not my Wife, Mom, Dad, Brothers, Sisters or any of my close friends really know what I do - that's my fault - I never took the time. I was at a conference a few years back and the topic came up - How do you make money in Engineering? - My response "Sell all the companies assets and invest in Microsoft". Even with the tech bust if you look at the numbers since 98 you'd probably find that would have been a more profitable path for most engineering companies. Why is it likethis?
My clients are Oil and Gas companies, all making money like never before
We should be saying - yes we are talented people and we would love to
work on your project - we will do it at cost + 15% (15% is actually
cheap - our new health plan requires a minimum 18% profit or our premiums will go up). Anyone think for 1 second the oil companies would stop all the new projects. In our society people respect you if you make money - we need proper respect to further our industry. If we stopped doing proposal work for free we would see respect very quickly - Our clients would be more interested in relationships instead of who's cheap. We need a strong organization to promote Engineering and we need to work together. As far as lawyers risk/reward goes - if there was a project out there where I could work for free but earn 20 lifetime's pay for a good job I'd be on it in a heartbeat. PRH Three lawyers and three engineers are traveling by train to a conference. At the station, the three lawyers each buy tickets and watch as the three engineers buy only a single ticket. "How are three people going to travel on only one ticket?" wonders one of the lawyers. "Watch, and you'll see," replies one of theengineers.
They all board the train. The lawyers take their respective seats while
all three engineers cram into a restroom and close the door behind them.
Shortly after the train departs, the conductor comes around collecting
tickets. He knocks on the restroom door and says, "Ticket, please." The
door opens just a crack and a single arm emerges with a ticket in hand.
The conductor takes it and moves on.
The lawyers see this and agree it is quite a clever idea. After the
conference, the lawyers decide to copy the engineers on the return trip
and save some money. When they get to the station, they buy a single
ticket for the return trip. To their astonishment, the engineers don't
buy a ticket at all. "How are you going to travel without a ticket?"
asks one perplexed lawyer. "Watch, and you'll see," replies one of the
engineers.
When they board the train the three lawyers cram into a restroom and the
three engineers cram into another one nearby. The train departs. A few
moments later, one of the engineers leaves his restroom and walks over
to the restroom where the lawyers are hiding. He knocks on the door and
says, "Ticket, please."
Paul Hawco
Mechanical Engineer
Neill & Gunter (Nova Scotia) Limited
http://www.neillandgunter.com <http://www.neillandgunter.com>
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