Re: [PipingDesign] Cost Estimation

I'm delighted to hear that the first reply comes from someone I can actually sit down and discuss with in person if need be.

(Not like you New Zealand people who expect free airfare to Canada for training courses - frickin moochers)

Once engineers feel a need to actively control the design/drafting process things start to fail. This is because we end up playing a catch-up game in which often one engineer hour equals ten drafting hours.

Established good design practice will have allowed for this phenomenon, but smaller engineering firms seem to have no concept of the reality and as I said before, some smaller companies just want a plumber that can draw nice pictures that can be presented to the client at bid time.

CAD has exacerbated things a lot in the sense that the total available pool of "draftsmen" for engineers has increased dramatically. These tend to be people that don't really know what they are doing but they are cheap.

Paul

Jacques Chaurette wrote:

> Well, I have to reply to this. There is a deep misunderstanding between
engineers and piping specialists. Even my good friend Paul succumbs to this. I am an engineer and have developed a healthy respect for piping designers, I know they do the real work that will be constructed that I with a few pen strokes outline on a piece of paper. There are some really strong engineers in this group and I know that they understand what I am talking about. I understand or at least have a good idea of what a piping designer has to do to come up with a good constructable and economically feasible layout. Unfortunately I do not think that many piping designers know or understand what the engineer's contribution is to the design. It varies so much that it is hard to describe in a few short sentences, maybe some of the other engineers in this group will take this on. This group has many excellent piping designers and engineers, let's keep communicating, we will get to understand each other   better.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jacques
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Bowers
> To: PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 7:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [PipingDesign] Cost Estimation
>
>
> Bingo. This is still true even though we now have amazingly powerful
> "thinking machines" to help us.
>
> I hope to start a good-natured argument with the comments below, so take
> everything I say in that light.
>
> The PFD (which most people never even see) leads to the P&ID with all
> the nice lines and logical layout. Unfortunately, then the real world
> interrupts.
>
> If we work backwards from a well-installed, properly-functioning process
> piping facility, we get to the drawings from which it was built.
>
> Engineers typically do not understand that one hours' work (calculation,
> analysis perhaps) on their part can easily mean 10 hours work for the
> person that is creating the model/drawing.
>
> What I have found with many engineers (me having over 20 years of
> experience) is that they don't really know what they want until they see
> it. They seem to be able to visualize *their* ideas but cannot
> appreciate the time it really takes to make the drawings.
>
> Engineers that typically work on smaller jobs are especially bad in this
> regard. What they really need/want is a plumber that can draw pictures
> for the client presentation, not a piping designer.
>
> Paul
>
>
> Steve McKenzie wrote:
>
> > Right on
> >
> > piping has a history of having the largest cost overrun on projects,
> > even when professionally estimated and locked into fixed (ha ha) price
> > contracts. For some guidelines, look at John S Page's books published by
> > Gulf, but tread warily.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Al [mailto:alwynk@shaw.ca]
> > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 4:53 AM
> > To: PipingDesign@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [PipingDesign] Cost Estimation
> >
> >
> >
> > dear amit,
> > trust us on this one
> > thats exactly why estimators have gainful full time employment. if it
> > was as easy as you ask, they would have no job. would you hand over all
> > the knowledge of your job so you could become unemployed? besides you
> > have to seriously question the value and accuracy of data given to you
> > in the way you ask. Estimating is a serious skill and many serious
> > decisions are based upon it. If you are trying to cut so many corners
> > what value is the attempt you are making going to have. Theres no harm
> > in building your own knowledge base of costing, but dont pretend its any
> > more than that when you are starting from scratch. For one thing it
> > changes constantly and only a professional estimator is up with the play
> > In the long run you will save money by letting a skilled estimator do
> > it. this is from experience, Paul knows our recent case. I've seen many
> > botched estimates and they just cause grief.
> >
> > ** Altecheng@shaw.ca
> >
> > ' 001(780)465-9762
> > 6 Fax/Msg(780)465-9762

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: anant panchal [mailto:panchal_ak@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 3:46 AM
> > To: pipingdesign@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [PipingDesign] Cost Estimation
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello all,
> > I am getting problems in calculating cost for Pipes,
> > Pipe fittings, flanges valves etcs.. I dont have data
> > of rates for many items ..As sending querries to
> > related manufacturing companies for many different
> > components with diff materials is very tedious and
> > reply are also not so quick. Can anybody put some
> > light for getting tentative rates from any internet
> > sites or some other source so that the estimation
> > process could be fast
Received on Sat Oct 09 21:17:00 2004